Calamity James ([info]orwellian_trash) wrote,
@ 2008-01-15 05:16:00
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Current mood: aggravated

"I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
I gave myself a massive stress headache last night just generally worrying so I took a couple of paracetamol and went for a lie down at about 8 o'clock. My headache has gone now but I can't quite get back to sleep so I'm going to talk about organ donations, idiots on the internet and why sex & death are necessarily linked.

I'm pleased to see Prime Minister Gordon Brown has approved an opt-out system of organ donation. This is something I can only see as a good thing if only because it will save hundreds more lives, it'll be much more efficient than the current opt-in system which results in a chronic shortage of organs either from lack of people with donor cards or donors with ridiculous families vetoing the wishes of the donor and denying the organs to be used. The system already works in Spain with a high success rate!

Mind you, I am perhaps biased because its entirely possible that in some point in the future I'll be on the receiving end of someone else's liver or lungs (although, touch-wood it's not for a long time until it gets to such an advanced state of failure) and Brown's motives may have something to do with the fact that his son Fraser has the same disease as I. The thing is, unlike, say, my belief that we should be investing in Nuclear Energy rather than wind-farms for our electricity which I can understand the alternate viewpoint, it seems to me that the only people complaining about this would be Jehovah's Witnesses, but can still opt-out.

However much to my utter despair, I'm wrong. Judging from the BBC Have Your Say debate, most people posting are opposed to the idea. I've often laughed at the sheer idiocy of things posted to the Have Your Say forums - most notably the debate about using unfertilised human-animal hybrid embryos for experiments and one overly panicked poster claimed, in all seriousness, this was what had "Caused Atlantis to Sink". Indeed the moronic comments on there has not escaped the attention of the BBC itself, with Humphrey Lyttelton of Radio 4's I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue quipping that it was "A free an open debate to air a wide range of bigotry".

But Seriously... SERIOUSLY! Here are a few selections from the debate

I want to say that this opinion is an exception, however unfortunately more often than not it's the rule. "Makes me want to rip up my donor card": what a fucking cunt this person is. Seriously, they'd do that just to make a pissy political point that they don't vote Labour? Jesus fucking wept.


Oh for fuck's sake! You know, I suspect 'Doctor' Bob isn't a real doctor at all...


Ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath, dickhead? It's still in use, believe it or not!


Praise for the Spanish system is at the top of the page! LERN REEDING COMPREHENSHUN PLZ!


When in doubt, revert to mindless bigotry. That just solves everything doesn't it!


Oh just fuck off, will you?

Fortunately there are some comments which are not staggeringly idiotic like the above and do give me back some faith in humanity.


Get out of here with your crazy Earth 'Logic' will you? Rational Debate is clearly frowned upon here!


And you! We enjoy our histrionics and not seeing the wood for the trees!


Amen!

The counter arguments, it would seem, are based on the idea that an opt-out system some how erodes your civil liberties. First of all - what? Sorry, what? Did you not understand that you CAN OPT OUT IF YOU WANT TO! Gangs of storm troopers will NOT be forcefully coming into your homes and ripping out your kidneys with a tyre iron! You will NOT be refused treatment at a hospital because you opt-out! This will NOT make you a second-class citizen! DON'T FUCKING PANIC! All this will do is allow more access to organs for those who need it. The current system, as I said above, is flawed as there is not enough donors - the main reasons being is that filling out a form is something that will eternally be done 'tomorrow' for many and then they get hit by a bus or selfish family members vetoing the use of their loved one's organs to help another. Another objection is that doctors may bump off one patient to save another, this will NOT happen, not in the UK anyway as ALL doctors are required to swear an oath by the British Medical Association that they will do whatever they can to save the life of any of their patients: This does NOT include killing them, surprisingly!

The objections are based more on ignorance than anything else.

However, there could be a cultural reason why there is such opposition to the idea. Death is the last great taboo which cannot be realistically censored and it still remains shocking. Death has shocked and continues to do so and until science allows us to live forever will continue to shock (Although I imagine death will become an even bigger taboo if we can live forever). "Death”, in its truest sense, means a collapse: an end to structure, a falling-away of the patterns that keep us alive and moving around, the DNA and the complicated biology. Not a thing at all, just the state of something reverting to random matter. This is perhaps why there is such opposition to the idea, that instead of dying the physical organs will continue to go on working leads us to suspect that this isn't a death at all, it's a half-death, a non-existence. A halfway Limbo between dead and not dead. Perhaps this is more shocking than death itself?

Traditional Goths dressed themselves up like corpses for the same reason Punks wore swastikas and Hippies had indiscriminate sex: because it shocks people, but not to the extent that is gratuitously offensive. Whether we accept it or not there is also a romantically sexy link to sex and death, marriages are supposed to last "Till death do us part", sex, death and taboo go hand in hand for the same reason soft drugs lead to harder ones. No culture without a taboo of death would think of making blood-drinking sexy in the same way smoking cannabis doesn't lead to smoking crack without a drug dealer asking "Hey, have you tried...?" a few times. They're both things we're not supposed to touch and they're both generally sold by the same people. The most obvious example of sex and death going together is in Neil Gaiman's The Sandman where the physical personification of Death is not as a dark grim reaper but a teenage Goth-Girl-Next-Door sex-symbol. Death is a sexy taboo.

Suffering, however, has no such connotations of sex that death does. There is nothing taboo or sexy about suffering, suffering is something we should try to eased, but it lacks the punch the final irreversible lurch into death does. Do you know what we need? I think we need a scare like something The Netherlands's De Grote Donorshow to be shown here just to highlight the problem of chronic organ shortage. When I first heard about a TV show which was going to let the audience vote on who receives a kidney from a terminally ill woman I had difficulty justifying why I believed it was wrong, our ideas of biopolitics, our cultural obsesses about what death 'is': perhaps the idea of playing God is more abhorrent in a universe without a God?

I'm angered by the sheer astronomical levels of ignorance in the comments above, they at least do have a cultural founding in a society secretly obsessed with death. That and the Daily Mail reading Little Englander mentality of complain at ANYTHING a government does, simply because you can regardless of whether it's a good idea or not. If we actually sit down and consider what an Opt-Out system of organ donation would actually mean, it can only be a good thing. Bloody hell!



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[info]seitanist
2008-01-15 09:59 am UTC (link)
I agree with a lot of what you wrote there, but this kind of upsets me:

"or selfish family members vetoing the use of their loved one's organs to help another"

This isn't about being selfish. If someone had asked me, right after my dad died, whether we agree to donate his organs, I would have most likely puked onto his shoes. Or spat into his face. This is just the kind of question you do not want to be asked when you've only just barely gotten the news of a loved one's death. In that case you simply do not fucking care if you can save anybody elses life by donating - because nobody elses life bloody matters anymore at that point.

Now what I'm trying to say with this is definitely in favour of the opt-out thing, just because you can spare families that kind of question by not forcing them to make a decision while in a state of shock.
My dad was an organ donor. My mother and I didn't know until weeks after his death, but we weren't asked either. He didn't have his donor card with him when he died. With an opt-out system some people's lives could have been saved. It's not "selfish" families that prevent organ donation, it's asking the wrong question, to the wrong people, at the worst time possible.

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-15 10:05 am UTC (link)
Well if you didn't know he wished to be an organ donor you can hardly be blamed for struggling to decide what his wishes would have been, so it's entirely unselfish on your part. However knowing someone wishes to be an organ donor and then going against their wishes by denying their organs to be harvested for religious reasons or personal bias, that is the selfish decision.

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[info]seitanist
2008-01-15 10:48 am UTC (link)
"However knowing someone wishes to be an organ donor and then going against their wishes by denying their organs to be harvested for religious reasons or personal bias, that is the selfish decision."

That's true. I just don't think they should even be asked in the first place because the close family members will be in a state of shock upon the news of the loved one's death and are thus likely to make the wrong decision (be it for selfish or unselfish reasons).

I didn't know that as a family member you could actually veto someone's decision to be a donor. That's pretty messed up.

Organ donation is I think a decision that nobody else should be making for you. Some people twist this around to saying that the government shouldn't make that decision for people either, but if you can opt out the decision is still up to the individual.

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[info]pseudojamie
2008-01-15 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Even with the opt-out system it looks like the families will still be able to veto donation.

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[info]thegooseking
2008-01-15 05:28 pm UTC (link)
The link between death and sex is well known. I wonder if the source of those ignorant comments isn't a link between sex and politics, though.

There are indeed a great many people under the misapprehension that having an opinion is sexy. I don't know where this comes from: maybe Che Guevara on the left and... someone else on the right. The basis is clear, though: By displaying these ignorant opinions, they are in fact displaying that they are passionate about it, and implying that they are passionate in general. It seems they tend not to realise it depends on what those opinions actually are. Or perhaps, to be more British about it, being passionate about these issues (and therefore hotheaded and irrational) is a way of sublimating their passionate drives away from genuine sexual passion, of which, as Brits, we're of course all terrified.

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-15 06:17 pm UTC (link)
Its undeniable that there is something attractive in a person who believes strongly in something, especially in a world where the two major political parties of the UK are so close together, ideologically, that they can cherry-pick each others policies and have no real stance on anything radical at all. But is simply a case of going along with the majority and pandering to the lowest common "I hate the government" denominator? Its entirely possible this may be the case but isn't there something deeper. Even when I, an advocate of organ donation, think about the subject for too long I can begin to feel vaguely squeamish about it.

Do you not feel there is something inherently taboo about the subject of organ donation? Our own bodies have been, for millennia, our own and now through miracles of modern technology we can give and recieve organs and 'live on' though another. In death you can give Life. Even on a political level there is still the whole issue of inter-personal power relations: does the deceased organ donor still have some remains of a power-relation with the recipient? If so, who is dominating and who is dominated? Can we even use terms like this with organ transplants? Is the power instead shifted to the technology behind it?

It seems to me that this is the case, fears of organ donations come from the way it subverts primeval unconscious power-relations, shifting them from people to things. It may be easier to reject the entire concept rather than admit it is possible to be dominated by something we have created. The tragedy of Frankenstein's Monster is that he is feared because he is not understood.

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[info]savagegrace
2008-01-15 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Do you not feel there is something inherently taboo about the subject of organ donation?

Of course there is. If you look at most religions with a system of honoring the dead, you will find explicit orders that the remains of the deceased are to be untouched on pain of spiritual infamy. Even though modern society is supposedly secular, a couple of millenia worth of indoctrinization doesn't die away over night, and not only may there be religious adherents who call it taboo because to them it simply is, but also there are a large number of apathetic fence-sitters whose fear that there may or not be a God translates into a latent fear of What Happens After I Die. Rationally, you don't feel pain after you die, you don't need your body after you die, fears about what happens to it after you die should be moot. Agreed. But you're assuming rational argument, which in the presence of Death often flies out the proverbial window. In short, organ donation is linked unavoidably with death, which as well as a cultural obsession is a deep-rooted cultural fear, and hence a taboo.

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-15 11:22 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I entirely agree. Medicine was set back literally centuries during the middle ages in Europe though accepting the writings of Galen as gospel truth because examining dead bodies was illegal. Even today some people will believe in the existence of a soul even when they rejected the concept of a God a long time ago. Although the Church of England has explicitly stated that Organ Donation is a 'Christian Duty', which means that religion cannot take all the blame for modern day superstitions regarding death...

Out of curiosity, would you prefer an opt-out or opt-in system?

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[info]savagegrace
2008-01-16 01:49 am UTC (link)
Opt-out,certainly.

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[info]thegooseking
2008-01-16 09:08 am UTC (link)
I wonder if there's a tribal aspect to it. People who hate the idea of donating an organ after their death to a stranger might not feel nearly so bad about it if it was going to help a family member or even a close friend. Maybe that is something to do with the power relations you're talking about.

To be honest, given that we agree this dislike of the subject is irrational, I think the most likely thing is what you said in the first place: It's not so much that they care about it after they're dead, but that caring about it while they're alive forces them to focus on their own mortality, and that makes them afraid.

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-16 02:14 pm UTC (link)
This seems quite true.

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[info]65redroses
2008-01-16 07:27 am UTC (link)
wow. I'm glad that Britain is getting a little closer to an opt-out system. We're fighting for it over here in Canada but I havn't even seen any media coverage so who know how long it will be.
Just in case anyone was wondering... I don't feel any different, spiritually or mentally. I feel different physically of course because I can breath. I don't feel full of someone elses life or their lungs. I am very much myself and don't feel beholden to the donor or their family. Yes, I am grateful but it is my life, not theirs. They would have died had I recieved their lungs or not.
As for death being sexy? I can't think of anything less sexy than almost dying but you are right in people's fascination with it. Everyone and their dog became obsessed with my well being only during my very close brush with death during and immediatly after my transplant. No one seemed to notice when I was slowly dying of cystic fibrosis. Slow death and suffering isn't sexy at all but throw around words like life-support or miracle and the prayers start pouring out of the woodwork. Not that I'm not grateful....

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-16 02:05 pm UTC (link)
The reality of death and the concept of death are two entirely separate things, the reality is quite simply the cease of life and the body reverting to random matter. But cultural concepts we have of death as 'the great leap into the unknown' and the question what happens afterwards is completely unanswerable, so we can never know an accurate answer to these questions which makes the entire thing more mysterious. Death is a cultural fear and thus gains its status as something which is taboo, its the taboo of something-we're-not-meant-to-talk-about which gives death the similar associations that sex does.

The reality is not sexy at all, but the mystery of the cultural concepts of death is, if you know what I mean

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[info]meepmoop
2008-01-16 01:43 pm UTC (link)
Dr Bob's a twat - it's all done online nowadays innit! You sign up online, you get put on the main register, but they also send you a donor card so you've got something. I'm sure they don't run around searching your body/house for a donor card anymore, think it'd be more they just type your name into a computer and see where it goes from there.

I thought all the family had to agree with this new system though? That, if they decided, then they'd not be able to take the organs???

Half the problem seems to be that on the radio and etc. they're saying things like 'compulsory organ donation,' whereas it's not like that at all. It's just instead of saying 'yes I want to donate,' you have to say 'no, I don't want to donate.' It's not hard. I know so many people who would want to be organ donors, but who just haven't had the card yet. Surely if someone is absolutely opposed to their organs being donated then they will, through their opposition, be perfectly capable and motivated to opt-out.

This makes me angry, grrr. I can't believe the way half the media are portraying it aswell. I reckon if you don't want your organs donated, then you don't get to have anyone elses either - fair's fair!

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-16 02:13 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I can imagine that'd be the headlines the tabloids and that go for to sell more copies and the emphasise that you don't know to whom your organs are going to after the event of death.

Kinda wish I'd bought a Daily Fail to see what they'd made of it. "OUR GOOD CLEAN BRITISH ORGANS GOING TO FILTHY GYPSIES, SINGLE MOTHERS AND PEOPLE ON BENIFITS!"

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[info]meepmoop
2008-01-16 10:59 pm UTC (link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=508042&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=256


ergh! All this about 'who's to say they're really dead' is sickening! It's the doctors who decide, and they will decide either way, whether the organs are used for donating or not. There's never been a great uproar about how loads of people who are organ donators have been declared dead sooner than they would have been had they not been organ donators has there? I've never heard anything so absurd. Why would the rules change, just because there will probably be an increase in donors? The rules stay the same, just the lazy get penalised! It's not moved from a voluntary system to an opt-out system, it's all voluntary, it's moved from opt-in to opt-out. You did more research than this reporter by finding out his son's got CF!

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-16 11:25 pm UTC (link)
Ah yeah, but someone in the comments has and, you know, using it as a critisism, because apparently caring about your family is a bad thing? Although as for the article itself: if that's not scaremongering then what is? Although

"As a result, from abortion, embryo research and cloning to starving and dehydrating "dispensable" patients to death, respect for human life has been replaced by the belief that individual lives are merely instrumental to the creation of the happiness of the greatest number."

Fuck yeah, consequentialism!

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[info]mad_madam_mim_h
2008-01-17 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Though i actually dislike Gordon Brown i can't help admiring his political courage in backing this issue. I wonder how the medical comunity feels about this and wether those on the transplant lists see this as a breach of human rights.

I cant help feeling that those who claim that respect for the dead is more important than helping the living are a little unhinged (if there is a soul then the body is empty of anything that made it that person and if there isn't then the body is empty anyway), though they no doubt have their reasons. From my own viewpoint i think it would show greater respect to the dead and even god not to waste a healthy organ by letting it rot. the whole idea of preserving the body as it is is all very egyptian, go ahead and mumify your dead if that is the case.

An opt-out system seems fairer to all than an opt-in system, give people plenty of warning and they will have their choice... i think the main difficulty is when you get people who cannot make the decision for themselves e.g. children and the mentally disabled. That is the worrying side for me, the only reason i can think of it being a flawed idea.

Also the fact that your family can veto your decision is a little unnerving, particularly if an indevidual feels so strongly that they carry a card with them wherever they go. That person has obviously made a decision about a specific legacy they want to leave. They may not get on with their family, although i am aware that this contradicts my view on the living being more of our concern than the dead, but when someone makes a decision in life about how they want to be treated in death it should be honoured, where possible.

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[info]orwellian_trash
2008-01-17 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Well it would seem to me that the opt-out system should really only apply to people who can make rational decisions, as you say I agree that the mentally disabled or those who're below the age of medical consent shouldn't be included in the opt-out system, rather it should be the decision of the next of kin.

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